EP 39: Christian Liberty, Fundamentalism, and Texas, Ft. Aaron Wright and Wilson Marsh

Christian Liberty & The Second London Confession: Insights with Aaron Wright & Wilson Marsh | The Broken Wharfe Podcast

In this episode, John Mark delves into the doctrine of Christian Liberty as framed in Chapter 21 of the Second London Confession with special guests, Aaron Wright and Wilson Marsh. They explore misconceptions around Christian liberty, particularly the focus on trivial liberties versus the more profound freedom from sin and the dominion of Satan that Christ has purchased for believers. The conversation touches on the differences in Christian liberty experienced under the Old and New Covenants and addresses common issues faced by believers today. Additionally, both guests share prayer requests regarding their respective church ministries in Houston and Wichita Falls, emphasizing gospel work and church growth. This episode offers a deep dive into the core essence of Christian liberty and its significance in the life of a believer.

00:00 Introduction to Christian Liberty
00:53 Welcome to the Broken Wharfe Podcast
01:08 Meet the Guests: Aaron Wright and Wilson Marsh
01:27 Aaron Wright's Background and Ministry
03:15 Wilson Marsh's Background and Ministry
05:32 The State of Reformed Churches in Texas
07:30 Understanding Texas: Culture and Geography
10:33 Discussion on Christian Liberty
23:28 Understanding Christian Liberty
23:52 Roman Catholic Influence in New Orleans
25:09 The Doctrine of Peace with God
26:50 Living According to Doctrine
28:00 Evangelical Perspectives on Liberty
31:52 The Role of Good Works in Salvation
34:09 Access to God Through Christ
36:57 Children's Books and Theological Concepts
41:15 Prayer Requests and Church Updates
45:15 Final Thoughts and Farewell

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Transcript

Aaron: 0:00

That's not really what the confession, uh, deals with when it talks about Christian liberty. It, it begins in talking about, uh, you know, the freedom that Christ has purchased for us from sin and the guilt of sin and the dominion of Satan and, uh, the binding of our conscience under the ceremonial law. And, uh, and it does get to, um, you know, rules of men, but primarily it's dealing with this in the area of justification, which is not at all how it was dealt with. Uh, as I, as I grew up.

John-Mark: 0:53

Well, hello and welcome to the Broken Wharf Podcast. My name's John Mark, and I'm usually joined by my co-host Johnny. But Johnny is, uh, a little bit busy this month and, and can't join for these recordings. And in his place. I have two very special guests. I have Aaron Wright from Houston, Texas, and I have Wilson Marsh from, I'm gonna pronounce this wrong, but is it Whitaker Falls, Texas.

Wilson Marsh: 1:23

Wichita Falls. You were close enough.

John-Mark: 1:26

Wichita Falls. That's it. Well, Wichita Falls Well, why don't you two men introduce yourselves, uh, beginning with Aaron, may maybe tell the listeners something about your church, your family, and those things.

Aaron: 1:37

So, uh, my name is Aaron Wright and I am a pastor at Grace Family Baptist Church in Houston, Texas. The church was planted back in 2006. Uh, we've planted two other churches, uh, since then. I am blessed to serve with two other brothers, Aaron Fry. I've been serving with him, uh, since 2018, and the Lord has blessed us most recently, uh, to bring on another elder. So that was a process we've been working through about a year. And brother Steve Clary is, has, has come on, uh, as well. Um, I'm married, uh, I've, uh, been married for 20 years. I have, uh, five children. Oldest will be 20, uh, in July, and my youngest is, is nine years old. And I've been serving as a pastor of the church since, uh, 2015. Uh, joined the church in 2010, came out as an elder around, oh, 2015. Came out as a deacon in 2013, is what I meant to say. And, uh, kinda started doing some teaching. Uh, had some opportunities to preach at the church. And, uh, then I came on as, as an elder. Uh, so far. So far, it's not a rule, but so far all of the elders that have served in this church have all come up from, from within the church. Um, church has, uh, oh, members, I think we're at about 92 right now, and our attendance is, uh, probably around one 50 or so every week. Um.

John-Mark: 3:11

That's wonderful. Yeah. Tha thank you for that, uh, introduction. And, and Wilson, why don't you tell the listeners something, uh, about yourself and and your church?

Wilson Marsh: 3:20

Yeah, so, uh, as you mentioned, we're based in Wichita Falls. For those of y'all geographically trying to pinpoint that. In Texas, we're, we're near the top of near Oklahoma, 10 minutes, not in the panhandle, but off to the, off to the right. Uh, we're about 10 minutes away from, uh, from. From Oklahoma border. Uh, and so I grew up in Texas, um, deep south Texas, near the Mexico border. So I've been working my way up slowly. Um, and I pastor now a, uh, confessional Baptist church plant, uh, second London confessing church plant here, uh, going on, uh, over, over a year, uh, by God's grace, or let me rephrase that. It's, it's been over a year now as of April that we constituted. I was here for a bit longer. It'll be two years here soon. Um, pastored before at more. I grew up in an SBC or Southern Baptist, uh, background. Um, pastored in that realm for about five years, four or five years as a lead pastor before that, like an associate I. Pastor, uh, during that time coming to the confession, uh, and the Lord eventually brought us this, this direction and, um, and being able to be part of this plant, which has been a blessing. Um, I have a family of, of four kiddos and a wonderful wife. We've been married 14 years or 15 years. Uh, my oldest is, is 13, about to be 13, and my youngest is three. Um. Uh, so, so, yeah. Uh, we, we've, we've been blessed being, uh, being nestled here and I'm, I'm grateful for the, uh, the Lord establishing our, our church. We just recently, uh, in fact, this coming Sunday, we, we will be installing, we're ordaining two deacons. Uh, there'll be the first other elders, or excuse me, other officers of the church and, and Lord willing, will have, uh, an additional elder in the new future. Something we're praying about, but we're sending out about as far as. Uh, members we're sending now about, uh, as far as officially members, somewhere around in the mid twenties, we have a gathering, uh, uh, a little over 40, uh, something like that at the meantime. So the, the Lord's been good to us. Hmm.

Aaron: 5:32

I'm really excited to see, um. Church up in the Wichita Falls area. I had a, a brother that had moved up there many years back and I really struggled to find him, uh, find him a, a good reformed Baptist church. In fact, I sent him to a church. It was almost in Oklahoma. It was past the border, not David Bain's church. It was another church at the time. Sure. And, uh, it turned out not to be a good fit. Um, and so he ended up in an OPC church, um, and now he's, he's Presbyterian. Uh, but, but when I saw that you were in, uh, Wichita Falls, I was just, I was just. Very joyful. Very, very excited that church is there. I'm Yes. Grateful for the work that you're doing.'cause it, um, it was a little bit of a wasteland for reform theology and I'm just excited to see your church and David Bain's church really just, uh, thriving in that area.

Wilson Marsh: 6:24

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and even beyond that, uh, or more broadly mm-hmm. It's, there's, there's little, and I'm gathering this not only from my own. Insights, but from members and the various paths they come from, there's, there's very little healthy churches. Uh uh. Mm-hmm. You know, just think of the three fundamentals of a true church that we think, you know, that has been spoken of in the reformed tradition. Um, uh, right. Preaching of the gospel and administration. Right. Administration of the, of the sacraments, ordinances, and church discipline. I. Those are nearly vacant. Um, there, there are some wonderful churches here. Uh, one pastor who just preached for me in my, uh, in my stead this past Sunday when I was out for vacation. But, but there, there are very few. Uh, absolutely. And we, so we're getting a lot of folks who are just, they're just starving for healthy church. Yeah. Uh, much, much less a, uh, confessional reform church. Amen.

John-Mark: 7:19

Yes, it is great to hear. Reform Baptist churches all over Texas. Yes. Uh, and just for, uh, the listeners over here in England. So where is Texas situated in the United States? Because I know in the news at the moment for us, uh, Los Angeles is in. Uh, you know, our headlines, cars being set on fire, things like that. Is that happening in your backyard or is there a big difference there in where you are? And maybe tell them one or two things about Texas as a place to give them a taste of, of the location.

Aaron: 7:56

I. Well, uh, Texas is, uh, the promised land over here in the United States, and, um, it's a, uh, I think it's the best state. Um, you know, as far as, um, kind of the, I'd say the, the culture and, um, there's a lot of, there's a lot of emphasis on, on personal. Not necessarily on the topic that we're on today, but, but personal liberties, you have a lot of autonomy and, uh, a bit more freedom over here than you do in, uh, in other areas of the country. Um, and so there's not cars being set on fire in Houston. If you tried that in my neighborhood, it would last about five minutes. Um, you wouldn't get very far through the neighborhood, um, burning people's property and, uh. But there are, there are some protests going on. I think there was maybe last Saturday. There's a few hundred people that were gathered around City Hall, uh, in Houston, uh, that were doing protests. But, um, the, those circumstances tend not to last very long, uh, in this area because even the way they police, the police will go after, uh, whoever's leading the events and, and remove them first. Um, so it just tends not to escalate, um, as it does, uh, in California.

John-Mark: 9:14

Would that be the same for where you are in the country? Wilson.

Wilson Marsh: 9:19

Yes. And, and I think that's probably largely the experience in Texas, um, is more because of a right leaning political, uh, cultural, uh, standpoint. You, you, you do see, see less of that, um, um, the reasons for the rights in LA or often seen in whether it's California or some other locations, states and Texas or states in the United States. Um, you, you, we, that's nearly non-existent. Um, uh, mostly'cause of conservative values. Uh, yeah, we, we, we don't get that, that so often. Um, yeah,

John-Mark: 9:59

we would like a few more of those conservative values over here, so, uh, if you want to export any of those, you're very welcome. We won't tariff them either, so they, conservative values.

Aaron: 10:13

Geographically we're in the center of the US in the south. Hmm. Yes, because I think you had asked that question. So, um, yeah, probably 1500 miles from, from California, if I'm just just guessing off the top of my head. Yeah.

John-Mark: 10:31

Yeah, that's helpful. That's helpful. So today, Aaron just alluded it to it a moment ago. We are having a discussion about Christian Liberty. It. In Chapter 21 of our Confession, faith, the Second London Confession, and in this episode, we're going to. Talk about some of the themes in chapter one and some of the general ideas of the doctrine. And in the next episode we'll discuss, uh, uh, paragraphs two and three. So I, I just said chapter one, but it's paragraph one, uh, of chapter 21, and then next episode, paragraphs two and three. Uh, maybe I can read the paragraph that might be helpful. Uh, and we can unpack some of the things in there. So chapter 21 and paragraph one, I'm reading out of the, uh, solid ground Christian Books hardback edition of the Confession of Faith and a Broken War for currently looking to reprint that. So if you like the. Sound of it. Although I, I don't think there's anything particularly distinct about the text in here. Uh, you can get a copy of broken wharf.com soon, but I'll read that paragraph. The liberty, which Christ have purchased for believers under the gospel consist in their freedom from the guilt of sin, the condemning wr of God, the rigor and curse of the law, and in there being delivered from this present evil world. Bondage to Satan and dominion of sin from the evil of afflictions, the fear and sting of death, the victory of the grave and everlasting damnation as also in their free access to God, and they yielding obedience unto him. Not outta slavish fear, but to childlike love. And willing mind all which were common also to believers under the law for the substance of them. But under the New Testament, the liberty of Christians is further enlarged in their freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law to which the Jewish church was subjected and in greater boldness of access to the throne of grace. And in fuller communications of the free spirit of God. The believers under the law did ordinarily partake on. Now generally where there we have, uh, the doctrine presented in the first half of the paragraph, and then in the second half we have a note there about the distinction between Christian liberty, uh, experienced by those who are in Christ under the Old Covenant and under the new. Aaron, you, uh, just as we were discussing this before, uh, recording, uh, turning the recording button on there, you, you, you were talking through some of the difficulties that people that you've known in the past have had with this idea of Christian Liberty. Could, could you explain just something about that, maybe, uh, what this doctrine is really speaking about and how it addresses some quite fundamental questions about, uh, the Christian life.

Aaron: 13:38

Yeah, absolutely. You know, one thing that I found to be fascinating when I first read this chapter within the confession is that it overwhelmingly dealt with Christian liberty in a way in which, uh, I wasn't familiar with here in the southern part of the United States. And there there's a history of fundamentalism. Uh, in, in the United States, uh, especially in the south, uh, among some of the independent fundamentalist Baptist churches and, uh, just even just regular evangelical, uh, Baptist churches. And, you know, when you would think about Liberty, it would be a question of, oh, well, you know, is that. Just so you have a license so that you can smoke or that you can, you can drink alcohol or, um, you know, even to some levels. I remember as a child there were, you know, there was a question of whether or not you could play cards. Well, you definitely couldn't play cards at church because, you know, people use those at casinos and, and, and they gamble and gambling as a sin. And so, you know, you're not being a good Christian witness by playing cards. Um, and I, and I know even at other times, um. There was a question at one point in my childhood, whether or not you could go to, uh, the movies at all, the cinema. Um, because, you know, if you went and watched this movie over here, if you went and saw Star Wars, um, you know, then well there's also this, uh, you know, you know, uh, there's this, um. Immoral movie, uh, on the other side of the theater. So by watching the, the PG movie, you're also participating in supporting the, uh, uh, you know, the R-rated or the, uh, close to X-rated movie. Um, and, uh, I mean, some of the rules they, they even had was, you know. We had what was called blue laws over here, where you could only, uh, buy certain foods on Sundays and you could, like, you could buy bread, but you couldn't buy meat or you could buy milk and then you couldn't buy and there'd be something else. And the, when you read through the laws that they really didn't make a whole lot of sense. But the one that's really stuck to this point is there's a restriction on when you can buy, buy alcohol on Sundays. But the church I grew up in, it was. It was a struggle for, for some of the people there because the pastor that we had at the time really saw himself as standing on the forefront against, um, you know, the, the, the sinful, um, influences in the culture. And he saw, you know, if any store or if any restaurant was selling alcohol, then by eating. In that restaurant you were supporting, um, drunkenness. Uh, you were in some way subsidizing that if the grocery store that you went to sold alcohol and you just went there to buy milk, you were in some way participating in, in, in the same, uh, activity. Um, and they just found that to be, you know, unrealistic. Uh, not a way that they could actually live out their lives. But, but furthermore, what I found to be interesting was. That's not really what the confession, uh, deals with when it talks about Christian liberty. It, it begins in talking about, uh, you know, the freedom that Christ has purchased for us from sin and the guilt of sin and the dominion of Satan and, uh, the binding of our conscience under the ceremonial law. And, uh, and it does get to, um, you know, rules of men, but primarily it's dealing with this in the area of justification, which is not at all how it was dealt with, uh, as I, as I grew up.

John-Mark: 17:12

Yeah, that's really helpful because often now I, I don't know whether it's just a perception that I've run into, uh, with the odd person here, or, or maybe it's a wider perception, but people. Either have one of two approaches to the doctrine of Christian Liberty in the United Kingdom from, from my perspective, they either really don't have much of a doctrine of on of Christian liberty because they just want to argue that the Bible. Or the, the law does not really demand anything from the individual believer under the new covenant. They would be very wary of any sort of application of the moral law teaching of, of the moral law. But on the other hand, I think people have this view that Christi Liberty and obviously it. It is wrong because this doctrine was praised as I'm, I'm sure, the Monsu by John Owen and his, the, the second foremost Doctrine of the Reformation. It was mm-hmm. Loved by the Puritans and, and it was a thoroughly. Puritan doctrine, but I think there is a, a perception by some today, at least over here, that this doctrine is, is loved by, uh, Americans, by those who just want to sing and dance about their freedom. Those Texans in the lone star state, but that's obviously not. Primarily what it's about. It's not actually about your freedom to do things. Mm-hmm. It's primarily about the freedom that you've been given by Christ in the gospel because you've been freed. You know, that's a wonderful list of all those things from the wr of God to the rigor and curse of the law. Yeah.

Wilson Marsh: 19:03

It, it, it's. It's substantial. Uh, it, and, and I think in, in his commentary, James Rehan mentions that we, we just don't, we underappreciate the, the significance of this chapter. I mean, you consider the, before the dawn of the Reformation, uh, you did not go to bed with. Assurance of mm-hmm. The freedom in Christ, uh, just because of the teachings that were occurring. You, you, you were ongoingly question, uh, your end. Uh, it it, what you have done. Is it enough? Um, ha have I, have I observed enough of the sacraments? And, and where do I stand in? In light of God. And then with the proclamation of the gospel and the liberty found in that, it's, it's extraordinary as, as we just read in our confession. And it's, you know, I, I love how you can see, and, and going back to Renehan, he hits on this a lot, uh, how our, the framers are of our confession. We're very mindful of. Of, of where the chapters and the topics were inserted because you began with 18, or I'm, I'm, as I'm looking at it, uh, in 18 you have the assurance of, of grace and salvation, and then, then you have law and then gospel. So 19 is law of God, 20 is of gospel. So you have the G law gospel distinction, and then weaving right out of that is, is Christian liberty. And, and, and that is exactly like this ties into assurance. Uh, this ties into law Gospel. Um, first and foremost, before we get into the, you know, as, as was mentioned, get into the discussions of. Can I, can I drink this? Can I use this? Mm-hmm. Is this okay? If I do? Uh, this is center to, uh, to the Christian faith is that in, in Christ, we have no condemnation. We're no longer under the law. Um, and that our federal head, through him, we receive all the benefits. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, of the covenant of grace. Uh, yeah. It is, it's extraordinary When you meditate on it and it goes, it's so sweeter than merely thinking of what I can do and what can I cannot do. Mm-hmm. Yeah,

Aaron: 21:10

it's Romans eight, right? Romans eight. Yes. One and two. There is now a no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for the law of, uh, the spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death for God has done what the law weakened by the flesh could not do. Um, I mean it's, it's, that's the gospel. That is the absolutely declaration that we have peace with God, as Paul says in, at the beginning of Romans five, it, it's not about me, um, establishing peace. It's not about me maintaining peace. Christ has purchased this, uh, for us. So even our obedience that flows out, um, that, that we do as Christians is in response to what God has done. Uh. Mm.

John-Mark: 21:57

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the most wonderful things about having a confession of faith is that the doctrines are so just thoroughly saturated in scripture. You, you look at this paragraph, even, even as you read it out, you can just hear the allusions to scripture. I, I mean this copy of the confession of faith, it has the. Um, scripture references that, um, have been put against it there. And you have Galatians, you have Romans eight, like, like we just heard, one Corinthians, two Thessalonians, uh, the gospels. It is wonderful to see this long list of things that we have been delivered from in Christ. We are genuinely free. And do, do you think that? This actually determines how we, we view the Christian life because certainly, uh, Renehan argues in his work That Chapter 21 is, is on Christian Liberty. And then until we get to chapter 30, you actually have that third section. Of the confession faith, which is on all these different subjects of OS and vows of marriage, of the Church of religious worship and the Sabbath day. And these are the things that we do as those who are liberated and freed in Christ under the gospel. So, you know, this is a question to either of you do. Do you think that actually in how we understand the Christian life, it should really be thought of as. Everything is framed in relation to this great doctrine of Christian liberty?

Aaron: 23:45

Well, I mean, I think it's, it has a connection to, um, well, kinda a bit of what I, what I was hitting on earlier. You, you know, you, you have, you know, kind of the, the influence of, of Roman Catholicism in an area of the country where. I had gone to seminary, and that's in the city of New Orleans. And in that city, um, you know, it, it, it very much is, is structured, uh, around the Roman Catholic calendar. The, the children will even have a. They'll have spring break, but then they'll also have a week off for Mardi Gras, uh, as well. And you have these really incredible, um, religious beliefs over there where you'll have, uh, people that are, uh, you know, absolutely living in sin, uh, living with one another, uh, outside of marriage. Um, but they'll still, there's still very much practicing limp. Um, you know, they, they will be participating, participating in Mardi Gras and partying and Fat Tuesday, and everything that goes along with that. And then lint comes around and, you know, they, they'd come, it was known that I was a Christian. They say, well, you know, I've, I've been really praying about it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give up chocolate for the next, uh, few weeks. And, um, you know, and I would like you to pray for me. Um, as I, as I'm giving up, giving up chocolate, it's like you're not gonna, you know, move out. You know, from your girlfriend, but, but you're gonna give up chocolate. And, um, you know, the, the beauty of this, this doctrine and how the confession frames it, is just kind of a recognition that, that we, we have peace with God, uh, through Christ Jesus, through, through what he, what he has accomplished. Um, and so the works that we're doing aren't about, you know, changing our, our, our standing. With the Lord. It's not, we're not doing, uh, particular actions to gain favor with him, and we're not losing favor because of particular actions, but Christ has purchased that for us. And that obedience that we do is, is in response to, you know, to to, to what he's, he's granted to us. And so within this, this is, well, we have freedom from these, uh, uh, these legalistic, uh, religious practices that, that flow out of paganism, they flow out of. A religious idea that says that through my actions, I can change, you know, my favor with God. And that's not Christianity. Christianity is, Christ has purchased me. Freedom in Christ. Christ has purchased for me peace with God, and he has saved me out of the clutches of sin and death, and granted me life everlasting. Um. And he has, he has given me a law and one of the uses of the law, um, is a, a guide, uh, by which we should live'cause we're made in the image of God and he has given us this law because he loves us and'cause it's the best way for us to live. And so we have freedom there to, to walk in obedience to, to what he has commanded us to do.

Wilson Marsh: 26:47

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Many, especially in the evangelical world, don't, don't consider how they live according to this doctrine. Uh, but, but they certainly live a certain way according to this doctrine. Uh, you know, uh, as Aaron was alluding to, and I grew up near Mexico border, so, uh, I mean my, the town I grew up in, small town was what, 90% Roman Catholic. Um. So as, as the first paragraph someone alludes to, certainly the second paragraph, alludes to, uh, many, many do live with some, under, some, some way of being under a law. Um, whether we're speaking of the law or a law of man. Um, and, and this pursuing of being right with God, that doesn't cease. And, and so they do live their, their life according to that. And many of the religions of the world live in a, in a standard of that way, don't they? I mean, we, I think by nature we just become faira. Mm-hmm. Trying, trying to take these steps towards God. And so that, that, that, that is a life of ongoing unsettledness. Uh, you can't escape that. So that's one. One way many live according to this doctrine. But on the flip side, uh, you, you have, and, and this is in some senses maybe the, the background I grew up in, even though there was legalistic, uh, tendencies that Aaron alluded to too. But like in the Southern Baptist Church, um, the, the, the champion of one saved, always saved doctrine, which in one sense we could agree with. Uh, when we think of that, we persevere as saints because of Christ. Uh, but many take, take this, the liberty to the other extreme and, uh, they, they live as though it, it doesn't really matter what they do. Um, so they're, they, they are the antinomians in one sense of, um, I'm, I'm, I'm free from anything and I, I have this ticket to, to heaven. And, uh, and, and therefore, uh, I'm. Uh, they, they live almost with no understanding or mindset of, of obedience to God in, in one respect. And they have to be reminded of this paragraph of, we are free from the dominion of sin, so Christian. Yeah. Don't be dominated by it. Yeah. And then looking at the more legalistic brother, you are freed under the gospel. Um, and, and the law. Um, and then we can, you know, as we get into the second paragraph there, you, you, you're freed from the, uh, the from, from the doctrines, commandments of men. Uh, so. Boy, this, this is pastoral, uh, chapter. I mean, we, we constantly have to come back to it with our congregants in, in counseling or, um, certainly in the proclamation of the word is this reminder where they are in standing with, with God. I. Such

Aaron: 29:36

a problem over here, isn't it? Because so many times, even to question, um, you know, if someone is trusting in Christ, given how they lived their lives, when they, you know, their, their declaration of their, their faith is a, a prayer that they said in response to someone else, uh, as lights were being dimmed as, uh. You know, counselors walk down first. So there would be kind of the peer pressure of others. Others going down there and they, and I don't know if it's like this in the uk, but it's still like this over here, where you will have the leader then have many people there in the front and then lead them in a prayer and, and, you know, give them a Bible and say, write this date down. If anyone ever questions this, they're, they're, they're from Satan. And meanwhile you have, you know. Some writing in First John, that that's very clear that, that we're gonna be, we're gonna be changed, we're gonna be distinct. We're, we're going to be, uh, we're going to be different people. And if you consider the writing of Paul in Romans, he says, you know, you're no longer a slave to sin. Now you're a slave to righteousness that's not really being communicated. Uh, you know, when we have these evangelistic presentations where it's just, uh, a repetition of a prayer after someone else, not a recognition that, um, this is a regeneration that you are, you are a changed person. Um, there's, there's, there's, just as Lazarus was dead and decomposing in the grave, Jesus commanded him to come out and he came out as crazy as it is to command a dead key composing person to come out. That's a picture that we have in our speaking to the lost. You, you, you're commanding like Ezekiel, those dry bones to, to come out and God is giving them life. And if there is life, uh, you're gonna see life. Um, you, you. If you're changed, you're gonna be changed. You're gonna be affected. Yeah.

John-Mark: 31:28

There's two sides to it, aren't there? There's the negative side that you were under the dominion of sin and a slave to sin, but now you're not. Yeah. You've been freed from that. So you need to go and live, um, in a righteous manner. You need to live. Under the liberty of the gospel, but it's also the positive sense that, and, and we have it here in, in that paragraph, we are freed unto good works. Yes. That, that's the thing that the non believer cannot do. It is, it's interesting because it is obvious when you think through the, you know, the power of the scriptures on that point, but. When people are dead in sin, it's not just that they're really unwell, it's that they're dead and dead People cannot do good works because good works are done unto the glory and praise of God. And so what happens when we're saved and we're justified is we are actually freed under good works. And so there's almost a double side to it.

Aaron: 32:38

Yeah. You see that in Ephesians too. Do you not? We have the, the, the verse that we're so familiar with that is, that is always quoted, you know, Ephesians two and verse eight. For by grace you've been saved through faith. This is not your own doing. There's a gift of God, the faith even being a gift of God. If I could make a, a, a point, uh, regarding God's sovereignty there, but not a result of work so that no one can boast. So we have that side of it there. Um. Which is the, the, the peace that we have with God. But then it says in verse 10, oftentimes this isn't quoted for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which he prepared beforehand that we would walk in them and we're so, we're, we're saved unto good works. He's saving us so that we can, uh, live in a way that glorifies him.

John-Mark: 33:26

No, absolutely. It's, in a sense, it's a, a, a doctrine of that. Should be preached, not only because it encourages the law's people, and it's inherently evangelistic, but because it also stirs us to actually go and follow the Lord in, uh, the ways that we ought to not setting up these moral well, these manmade structures mm-hmm. That we ought to follow. Do, do either of you have? Any other thoughts, uh, on, on this paragraph? I know we've not really addressed the, uh, second part of that. If you've got any thoughts on, on that before we close?

Wilson Marsh: 34:09

Uh, uh, one, one phrase that that comes out and I, I just, I've been preaching through Genesis recently and, and, and this is something that, that, uh, less so than Exodus, but still arises, but certainly in Exodus and there's been a lot of illusion sticks of dis course in Genesis, but when it mentions that, uh, the boldness of access to the throne of grace, like what. How credible that is. I mean, you, if you think of Exodus 19 as I come to the mountain and the trepidation that there was, uh, with you, imagine the, the cinematic, uh, Marvel end game like atmosphere of being before the mountain of the Lord, and there's the thunder and the lightning and Yeah. And, and then the fire and, and if you. You know, command, if you touch this mountain, you will die. And then they hear the Lord speak to them. And after he's done, uh, telling Moses, we, we don't wanna hear anymore if speak for us.'cause if he, if we hear him, we will die. Uh, and, and you imagine you, you don't have that sense of boldness going to the throne of grace. Um, and, and yet we can through Christ with just extraordinary, I mean, this is part of the Christian liberty, um, that. Hebrews, uh,'cause'cause that's, that's the illusion there. Mm-hmm. Um, speaks of that. We, we can go to the, the god who, the, the God of death, the God who's not safe. Um, yeah. But he's good. Think of, see us Lewis there. Uh, we, we can go before him and without fear and trepidation. Uh, because crisis faced that fear trepidation for us. So there's, there's freedom through what he has accomplished for us

John-Mark: 35:50

that was in. Han's work. I think it, I, I found this, but there was that quote from John Owen on free access to God, that it is the great fundamental principle of the gospel is something like that. And you really feel that the weight of that, when you think through it in, in that biblical theological way of, mm-hmm. Well, what, what is free access to God? I mean, we take it for granted. For example, when, when I was growing up, I grew up in a Christian family, which was an amazing blessing, but I just took the idea of access to God for granted that we could come to church and we could mm-hmm. Worship him when, you know, when we received the call to worship, just like. So what, but you, you understand the Old Testament context of access to God and you think that is a terrifying thing and that's Christian liberty again, what a, what a wonderful thing to be given.

Aaron: 36:56

Yes. Are either of you familiar with a book written by RFC Spro? It's a children's book. It's called The Priest With Dirty Clothes. Yeah, it's a great book. My children enjoy that. Just, just a fantastic, uh, you know, picture of that, like what John Mark was just, uh, speaking of there, you know, you just kind of. You know, take for granted this just going in and, and worshiping God. Um, you know, but you know, the, the people of Israel had had a fear that as the Lord even began to speak the law, you know, they said, okay, you go speak to the Lord on, on our behalf that recognized we, we need a mediator. And uh, you know, in that story you had the priest where he's going to visit the king and he falls into the mud and. As much as he tries, he can't clean his garments. He tries washing them himself. He just makes the whole situation worse. And it's, and it's the, uh, son of the king that, that grants him his robes and he takes on the filthy robes of the. The priest. So you have that beautiful picture of imputed sin, imputed righteousness, and then the priest is accepted into the court of the king without, uh, you know, any, any fear of, of the king's wrath because he's wearing the robes of the king's son. Of course he's going to be accepted for that reason. And, you know, that's the beauty of what we have in Christ. And that. That should be our motivation towards, you know, towards walking in righteousness, towards doing good deeds toward, towards keeping the law. Even our understanding of, you know, some of these gray areas that so much of the conversation on Christian liberty begins to, to go around that, uh, we can even, you know, look at those things with a right, right perspective, a lens of I've been saved by grace and through faith. How best should I be loving my brother in, in this situation?

John-Mark: 38:47

Hmm.

Aaron: 38:47

Yeah. Amen.

John-Mark: 38:49

It's, uh, I, I have a, a recollection of that book and I, I can't remember, is it in a series with, there's another one he wrote on, was it Martin Luther's hair dresser? Yeah. Or barber or something. The

Aaron: 39:07

barber, yeah. Yeah, that, that, that's another one as well. That's, that's an interesting story as well. Um, that's, uh, and so that's, that's based on some truth. It was a barber that, uh, uh, that, that he had spoken with and it actually, the man ended up going through, through a bit of persecution himself and his life. Um.

39:30

Great

Aaron: 39:30

series. Great series. And what's nice about those books, uh, as a parent as well, is that they deal with some very, you know, deep and rich, uh, theological concepts. Uh, but then when you get to the back of the book, uh, you know, it's, they, they basically, you all the footnotes. So you can, I. Talk the kids through these deep concepts of, you know, the imputed righteousness of Christ and our sin being imputed, uh, to Christ. And, uh, just to, to give you a guide so you're not all on your own trying to explain this. There's, um, it's, it's laid out in a very orderly way. Um, what the, the various, uh, parts of the, the book are, uh, you know, supporting and, and emphasizing theologically through the story. And it's just, it really is a, uh. J just a, just an excellent way to, to teach because, um, I know I remember things very well through stories, and so children, children do as well. Absolutely.

John-Mark: 40:31

We should definitely get those ones in the bookshop. It's, uh, I, I remember, I remember reading that one about the, uh, Barbara in particular and really enjoying it. So, you know, we, we should get them. It's. It's just helpful to consider Christian liberty in, in that context of really communicating the gospel itself. And if you properly understand the gospel, then of course you embrace this doctrine of Christian liberty in its purest form because it's simply telling you everything that we have in the Lord Jesus Christ.

41:12

Mm-hmm.

John-Mark: 41:15

Well, thank you for joining me, brothers, and, and taking the time to, uh, have, uh, this discussion. Just before we go, how about you give the listeners one? One of the wonderful things about this, I. Podcast is that we have people who listen all over the world and we, we go on and see the country list and it's just extensive. Uh, people in, obviously England, the United States, Germany, France, all over Africa, people listen to this. So maybe give, uh, just one. Thing, uh, for prayer about your church that people can, uh, bear in mind and bring before the Lord, uh, and, and pray for you about. Hmm.

Aaron: 42:05

Well, appreciate that. Um, we have, um. Uh, we have a group that's supplied for membership and they're, they're going through the process now. I think we have maybe one more week of a, uh, new member class and then, uh, we're gonna interview them and present them. We've got a couple that are candidates for baptism as well. It's just been, uh, it's been beautiful to see the growth of, uh, of, of, of some of these, uh, the people, the work, the Lord's done in their lives and, uh. Very significant transformations. So just pray for, um. The work of the gospel within the church and, uh, the, uh, conversion of, of the children in the church. And, uh, we'll be going out. We do street evangelism once a month. We don't make a big deal out of it, but it's something that we do. We're not too far from downtown. And so you pray for that as well. We'll go out, a small group of us, we'll go out. We don't, we don't push everyone to be involved in it, but, um, those that desire to participate. Um, and we have many good conversations, many, many good opportunities to, uh, you know, talk on some of the topics we've been talking about today with them.

John-Mark: 43:18

Yeah. Thank you. My request

Wilson Marsh: 43:20

be

John-Mark: 43:21

no, go, go, go ahead.

Wilson Marsh: 43:23

I, I was gonna, my request be very, very similar to Aaron's. Um, we, um. We have some, some individuals coming up from membership, uh, who are being presented to the church for membership. Uh, we have a brother that we will soon, Lord will be baptized, um, college age brother. Uh, looking forward to, uh, I, I mentioned in the beginning we have two men who are gonna be, he, they've already been. Affirmed by the church, but they will be installed, uh, ordained this, this coming Lord's day. Um, and so, uh, we, we, there, there's a prayer for both. Um. A prayer of, of thankfulness, um, for the Lord providing that and, and of course, for ongoing guidance and wisdom and protection. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm immensely grateful the Lord has presented some fellow men who, uh, can, can assist in some form of guidance and, uh, care for the church while we await for a qualified, uh, elder or elders. And so. Um, and then on top of that, um, once a month now we, we've begun, uh, we have an opportunity of evangelism, um, that began just last Thursday in fact. And, uh, there's been some other opportunities recently too, but, but a big event that goes on every month in, in Wichita Falls, uh, that we are now taking part of. And we had a lot of great opportunities. Conversations and opportunities last Thursday, so be be prepared for that. Uh, as mentioned earlier, we, we, we have a city who, um, e even for those who attend churches, many, uh, mu, much of their, uh, mu much of what they hear is, is a diluted or false gospel outright. And, and so it, it gives us a great opportunity there.

John-Mark: 45:10

It's encouraging to hear. We will, um, I will certain, certainly keep those things in prayer. And if you're listening to this and you'd like to get in touch with either of these, uh, men, you can email us at info@brokenwharf.com and we can put you in touch. Uh, that, that note on evangelism is. Interesting. Maybe it's the, the Reformed Baptist way. We, we evangelize once a month. We have, uh, some street preaching and things like that. And it's difficult work, but it's, yeah, it's, well, obviously the greatest privilege when. Like we've discussed, you've been given that liberty in Christ to go and preach peace to the nations is just mm-hmm. You know, wonderful. So we will keep those things in prayer. If you're listening to this, you can find us wherever you get your podcast. Keep in touch, press that little bell or, or follow sign on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you're watching on YouTube. Why don't you subscribe to our YouTube channel? And, uh, keep in touch with the videos that we do there. Thanks again, and bye for now.